citrusjava: (Default)
nce and for all: authors/writers who brag that they write "for the characters", not for the fans, aren't doing something noble and artistic. Not by saying that. Saying that in based on the assumption that fans ' interpretations of characters are shallow and 'mistaken' and that that is not ok. Both assumptions are incredibly condescending, especially from some writers, who write OOC and don't seem to know or love the characters as much as many fan writers do. ok, I have spoken. And now I will probably regret it.
citrusjava: (Default)
Snagged from [livejournal.com profile] balder12

I haven't finished and posted that much fic, so perhaps I'll answer about writing in general, if I don't have a good enough fic answer.

Put a number in the comments and I’ll answer accordingly. The mission for those of us who answer the questions, should we accept it, is to stay positive about our writing and ourselves, but to also be fair about our shortcomings.

1. Of the fic you’ve written, of which are you most proud?
2. Favorite tense
3. Favorite POV
4. What are some themes you love writing about?
5. What inspires you to write?
6. Thoughts on critique
7. Create a character on the spot... NOW!
8. Is there a character you love writing for the most? The least? Why?
9. A passage from a WIP
10. What are your strengths in writing?
11. What are your weaknesses in writing?
12. Anything else that you want to know... (otherwise known as Fill in the Blank)
citrusjava: (Default)
What if Dean's not telling Sam (he perhaps could have convinced him to do things Dean's way, he often does, like in Sacrifice), and not telling Cas, even, even though Cas was likely to be understanding - what if it's partially because Dean doesn't feel he deserves to have a happy ending?

I've been uncomfortable about about how the Batcave was too much to give the boys and still expect the series premise to remain stable and the boys to remain stable. Perhaps, being given something that big, the same way Sam retreated into himself and didn't quite take it (room etc), perhaps Dean needed it to be less good in order to be able to - IDK, exist in it?

He always said he wasn't gonna ever get an ending like that - gonna die young and that. And then he accepted it really well, enjoying it all - perhaps that was only while he didn't expect it to last? And as soon as he realized they did live there, and he had Sam, and they had a way in which Sam could perhaps enjoy the life while also not giving up his scholarly tendencies, and Cas was around, and even Kevin and Charlie were there a bit - family(ish) - perhaps that was simply too much - too foreign? And trouble, and having to worry about Sam and the supernatural, and even being horrible guilty - were at least something he knew how to deal with?

Probably, had he lost Sam, it would have been a whole lot like being with Lisa - and he couldn't go through that again... but still, he could have made it less of a problem, I believe.

And an unrelated Wincesty quote from 910 )
citrusjava: (Default)
In some of my older fandoms, we used to try to convince, make a case for our boys being heartbroken when their boys left them and such. In so many of today's fandoms - it's canon. I really like that. Guys can be meaningful to each other in canon, can be life partners even.

It leaves the argument to be about whether or not it's a loving sexual relationship, or an awesome non-sexual partnership - and I love both options a whole lot.
citrusjava: (Default)
The thing about me a current SPN Canon is this: There are not a lot of characters I can identify with anywhere, and particularly not on TV. That's really very rare. And I strongly identify with both Sam and Dean.

So I'm invested in what happens to them, not just because I love them, but also cause I'm sorta waiting to find out from this tale - how do people like me end up? What happens to us? And yeah, I realize it's a bad idea. And yeah, a bad ending would be heartbreaking. But there seriously aren't any, nearly any stories like that - how could I stop listening, not care? It's like finding your first gay character, in all the stories. You're gonna cling to it even if it's a horrible, bigoted representation - probably


The thing is, for seasons now I'm listening pretty intently, waiting to hear - how they deal with things, what the consequences are and so forth. What can be expected, where choices lead. What somebody else thinks about these things, some creator who perhaps experienced something of that too, perhaps knows things I don't... just has other perspectives... something!

One option not available, is going out of character, "being someone else".I'm waiting for news from the boys I love, the guys I identify with. I wanna know what they do to deal with things. Even just - their trauma, guilt, mental issues, loss, addiction, economic state, isolation, social status and so forth... pegging that as "too depressing" is horrible. It's saying "if you have that many problems, just go ahead and give up on life". People live with bad things, people deal with bad things. And it can include fun and banter and brotherly slashiness - that's what Show's *always* given us, the boys dealing with things too big while supporting each other and sometimes having a good balance with fun. I need to hear about how my boys deal/dealt with it. How they got where they are, wherever that is... There''s no indication of how or why they got where they are...
citrusjava: (Default)
Watched it for the first time. It was a lot of fun, and very slashy, half naked hugging (and *slumping and holding!*), and climbing over each other in bed to bring morning coffee and doing Christmas together, You know, like J2. Anyway.

I find it interesting that both here and in Supernatural, and in a bunch of other texts, the part of the duo to want a normative life is the one less hegemonic. I thought it may just be an anti-stereotype, like writing masculine gay guys. Which I still think is the case in most of those. Another reason, which I've seen in fic in reference to Sam quite a bit, is that being less normative, he needed this normalcy format more. Another interpretation I hadn't heard before came up in class - that since culture and family (and being characterized as a bit too old, like Roger, or a bit too young, like Sam) are often perceived as less masculine, it makes less hegemonic characters less threatening to the viewer, and no real competition to the more hegemonic half of the duo, which perhaps enables the closeness between them. Perhaps it's just a case of "the white/human/normal guy and his Other buddy" plot, and since being free, rebel(ish) with a possible-but-not-really death wish is cool, the other guy gets the contrasting role.

On a different yet related (har har) note - the incest! What? What was I - why?! How was I *supposed* to read the scene in which Roger's daughter showed him her new dress, walking down the stairs to the very pronounced smoky saxophone music? And gave him a kiss? Playfully splashed and kissed him and commented on his looks while he was in the bathtub? I thought at first they were building towards "protective father whose daughter is growing up too fast", but they never did that, if that's what they were going for. What?

~
A random person at uni heard me mention SPN, and made a point of letting me know she loved Dean, but not Sam, cause he's just a faggot. I was so offended! How dare she say someone is more of a faggot than Dean?!
citrusjava: (Default)
This part contains vague references to season 9 )

It's common these days, in more and more sorts of research, to talk about what's considered "normal", "universal", "not worth mentioning, because of course". Like someone being a white straight man. You know the drill. The common approach today (or, at least, around me) is to look at it as something that is specific, too, not universal. Like- being a man is specific, men aren't "general people". And in one way, most research in existence is about men, canonical everything is written mostly bu men and so forth, but in another way, there's not a lot of research about masculinity itself.

It's interesting to me to look at fic that's like that, in SPN, our "usual" fic. Or at least, your usual Sam/Dean or Sam & Dean fic, I don't read enough of the others to know, and I am curious to hear about this in other places in fandom, if you know and feel like saying.

I'd say your garden variety fic is "not season specific", but it takes place around season 3, minus the deal, give or take the angels and Sam's muscles. Motel rooms, following cases from town to town, diners, bringing each other coffee/take out in the morning (have they ever, ever done that in canon before last episode?), they know about possession and demons, if there are angels around, they're not central, nobody is crazy or suicidal or an alcoholic, and they don't know about fic. Dean's likely to hit on random (gorgeous) girls, Bobby's around and walking, The Trickster is around in either persona, Crowley probably isn't.

Even with fic that's less specific than that, it's often easy to tell around what season stories were written, the same way decades have indications in fashion and music. Vibe, characterizations, small things that became non-canon, the description of Sam's body and hair, And, of course, bigger things like each character's mental place, the way the audience is expected to think about their relationship, and how they're likely to act.

It's really interesting to me that "first time", while perhaps more central, is far from being obvious in this sort of fic. It might be cause it makes PWPs easier, but I don't think that's why. Perhaps it's because to many people, they sort of always had a relationship. Perhaps it because it's been so long, we get it, they're together, and as I took to yelling at the screen, watching SPN for the first time - there's only so much UST you can drive your audience crazy with before they gather outside the network offices with farm tools and take Show from you. Which is, of course, the low tech version of writing fic.

It seems like in seasons 8-9 )
citrusjava: (Default)
1) You know the Winchester "we're all we got" thing? Now that they have more of a community, they have option, I'd like some "I have options, and I choose you cause I want to" moments in canon and in fic.

2) I keep going back to this plot I just want to see: things are more or less ok for the boys, they're settled in their bunker, they're working together and being pretty much honest with each other etc - and one day, in the middle of a hunt, or they come home to find in their sitting area - John Winchester.
And they have to sort of rediscover who they are - how they changed and didn't change, how they feel about him and about each other's relationship with him now, where he'd be proud of them and where he really wouldn't, how much of it they'll talk about - and whether they still even speak the same language, communicate in the same ways - and what they'd hide from him, or refuse to hide from him, how he'll react to it if he finds out etc.
citrusjava: (Default)
Purity is discussed in this season by both Dean and Sam.

Sam talks about his deep need to become pure of his imperfections. The most important part of that is, perhaps, to be good enough to be approved of and seen as a person by Dean. Loved for his own self, rather than as someone to take care of. Seems that Sam believes Dean doesn't love him in that way, because Sam doesn't deserve it. As [livejournal.com profile] de_nugis pointed out too, Dean doesn't give Sam a reason to think otherwise. Sam first confesses this at the church, to whatever deity. Later he confesses the same to Dean - who, for all he refused to a tool of heaven, sure developed clear moral ideas and expectations of Sam. And to Sam, growing up with this glowing, strong, self assured, beloved big brother, for all he doesn't know it - Dean is perhaps as close to a deity as he gets.

Dean talked about purity as well, mostly in the beginning of the season. To Dean, purgatory was pure. This can be read as merely an expression of things being black and white there, easy, with no moral dilemmas . If so, it should be asked how come, in this blessedly black and white setting, Dean decided to cross the line and become close to a vampire. Perhaps it somehow allowed it? Regardless, there's maybe another way of seeing this purity.

Purgatory is built almost exactly in accordance with glorified reports of WWII as a purely masculine space, in which men can closely bond in a way unmarred by sex and not disturbed by women*. In which men can revert to their true masculine form, discover what they're really made of, and kill plenty of monsters.

Perhaps to Dean, like Sam, purity is being worthy of love, to him by John? Perhaps being a soldier, like John was, killing monsters daily and without qualms, like perhaps John seemed to demnad, was a way of finally being what Dean imagines John wanted?

For all Dean is a baddass, he is not traditionally masculine in every way. He is vulnerable, at times soft. He is pretty. He is loving, sensitive, and often wears his heart on his sleeve. Even the way he allows himself to express delight is not manly. He takes care of people - which may have been appreciated by John when directed at Sam and himself, but perhaps less as a simple characteristic. At least, in the way Dean imagines what John would appreciate. In many ways, Dean is not a good example of traditional masculinity. He must know this. It's probably the reason for a lot of his overcompensation.

It makes sense that Dean makes such an effort to be "a real man", cause that's what he believes John wanted of him. What is was, perhaps, supposed to grow into by then, but hasn't because of some inner flaw . What he's supposed to be, to be worthy of being a person. Just like Sam towards Dean. Perhaps to Dean, becoming pure and worthy means scrubbing off the places in which he is not masculine enough.

___________
*By the way, this resonates in a lot of SPN. For example - the tropes of women connected with this? The pure, incorporeal concept, often of a caretaker (like Mary, early Anna), the evil bitch (crossroads demon, Lilith and many others), the sweetheart at home who gets close to no characteristics and is not part of anyone's life (Lisa, perhaps Jess), and random one-night stands.

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