This is beautiful and now I want to believe *feels*
I agree that Dean knows, on his own emotions a flesh and scarred scarred psych, a whole lot about emotional suffering, and that it the type that probably gets him the most, that he'd perhaps consider the worst (which is a thing that makes me a bit uncomfortable about the s3 finale, but I suppose that was just an instant of torture, and no one takes well to that, probably, regardless of their feaars and complexity).
I guess I can buy him going the extra mile because it's Sam, and Dean generally wants everything he can have Sam. And yeah, there were times Dean did little cruel things - possibly to cause emotional impact in Sam - some of his condemnations, throwing away the amulet. But those may have been more about expressing Dean's emotional state than finding a way to hurt Sam?
Anyway, I didn' ge the sense (I know, this is not faandom's opinion or the show's depiction) that Dean was seriously intent on seriously harming Sam... - the most shocking part for me was the hammer simply because it reminded me of Cole's hammer - and there I seriously did believe Sam might be maimed.
As for Dean and Cole, though - I can believe, as you said, that Dean would want someone so invested in caring about Dean to be around, doing that, but that is not about enjoying Cole's suffering. I believe Dean *might* enjoy something like having Cole tied up and desperately looping through how much he hates Dean, and is helpless, fails, can't, for a long long while. Dean might even enjoy some Stockholm Syndrome on Cole's part, I believe he does have that sadistic streak of enjoying having someone let go because if him, or winning over someone (remember Lenore's friends?), or effortlessly making someone thrash and flutter in vain, submit, have that sort of emotional connection with Dean. But Dean is emotionally detached enough that I don't get the sense he's enjoy most deep emotional things... and more than that, I just don't know if he'd do it. Have the idea, feel he deserves something like that (IDK that his self esteem issues went away as a demon), actually do the whole thing... his demon existence is very - calm. No drive, perhaps.
Honestly, what this did feel like, just on a sense level - is that the time with Crowley was just self destructive in an "I don't even care enough to be properly self destructive, I'll just wait for it to end" sort of way, but also without completely meaning that, I get the feeling he wanted Sam to put in the effort and save Dean and show him Sam does care. Sounds like Dean's been bitching to Crowley about Sam not looking for him, for a girl, again, and the "I lied" probably didn't take away the smarting of the "I wouldn't do the same for you"). And the whole "no, I really am evil" bullshit in the car was more about testing Sam.
You could say that I don't see how evil he is/was because I/we have so much history with Dean and trust him, but yeah, Dean's done horrible things as a human, that he han't as a demon seriously, and - you know, when you trust someone so much, in some ways it might be easier for them to disappoint you?
there was not a moment I remember in this entire thing where I was "fuck, this is serious". The "it's just a car" made me do that "no he didn't" 'shock and delight' face, I was glad they remembered to include her.... and not saving Sam - come on, even human Dean could have done that - say, pissed off at Samand knowing Sam could/would probably get out easily, not wanting to play into things and see him (could be Sam's doing, too), and just being glad that was going to keep Sam busy and give Dean time to get away? I believe he could have done that. Perhaps we'll get those later, if the mark acts up enough.
He was a bubbly demon, his main cruelty was being emotionally detached and unavailable. I like that it is so much like John, and I am curious to see/read/write about him wanting a life of his own, perhaps it's time fo that plot. It might break my heart if they write it in canon, but there should be a long, slow fic about Dean realizing that he does want that, as human. Canon has given us much to work with .It's time.
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timeasmymeasure
no subject
Date: 2014-10-24 09:57 am (UTC)I agree that Dean knows, on his own emotions a flesh and scarred scarred psych, a whole lot about emotional suffering, and that it the type that probably gets him the most, that he'd perhaps consider the worst (which is a thing that makes me a bit uncomfortable about the s3 finale, but I suppose that was just an instant of torture, and no one takes well to that, probably, regardless of their feaars and complexity).
I guess I can buy him going the extra mile because it's Sam, and Dean generally wants everything he can have Sam. And yeah, there were times Dean did little cruel things - possibly to cause emotional impact in Sam - some of his condemnations, throwing away the amulet. But those may have been more about expressing Dean's emotional state than finding a way to hurt Sam?
Anyway, I didn' ge the sense (I know, this is not faandom's opinion or the show's depiction) that Dean was seriously intent on seriously harming Sam... - the most shocking part for me was the hammer simply because it reminded me of Cole's hammer - and there I seriously did believe Sam might be maimed.
As for Dean and Cole, though - I can believe, as you said, that Dean would want someone so invested in caring about Dean to be around, doing that, but that is not about enjoying Cole's suffering. I believe Dean *might* enjoy something like having Cole tied up and desperately looping through how much he hates Dean, and is helpless, fails, can't, for a long long while. Dean might even enjoy some Stockholm Syndrome on Cole's part, I believe he does have that sadistic streak of enjoying having someone let go because if him, or winning over someone (remember Lenore's friends?), or effortlessly making someone thrash and flutter in vain, submit, have that sort of emotional connection with Dean. But Dean is emotionally detached enough that I don't get the sense he's enjoy most deep emotional things... and more than that, I just don't know if he'd do it. Have the idea, feel he deserves something like that (IDK that his self esteem issues went away as a demon), actually do the whole thing... his demon existence is very - calm. No drive, perhaps.
Honestly, what this did feel like, just on a sense level - is that the time with Crowley was just self destructive in an "I don't even care enough to be properly self destructive, I'll just wait for it to end" sort of way, but also without completely meaning that, I get the feeling he wanted Sam to put in the effort and save Dean and show him Sam does care. Sounds like Dean's been bitching to Crowley about Sam not looking for him, for a girl, again, and the "I lied" probably didn't take away the smarting of the "I wouldn't do the same for you"). And the whole "no, I really am evil" bullshit in the car was more about testing Sam.
You could say that I don't see how evil he is/was because I/we have so much history with Dean and trust him, but yeah, Dean's done horrible things as a human, that he han't as a demon seriously, and - you know, when you trust someone so much, in some ways it might be easier for them to disappoint you?
there was not a moment I remember in this entire thing where I was "fuck, this is serious". The "it's just a car" made me do that "no he didn't" 'shock and delight' face, I was glad they remembered to include her.... and not saving Sam - come on, even human Dean could have done that - say, pissed off at Samand knowing Sam could/would probably get out easily, not wanting to play into things and see him (could be Sam's doing, too), and just being glad that was going to keep Sam busy and give Dean time to get away? I believe he could have done that.
Perhaps we'll get those later, if the mark acts up enough.
He was a bubbly demon, his main cruelty was being emotionally detached and unavailable. I like that it is so much like John, and I am curious to see/read/write about him wanting a life of his own, perhaps it's time fo that plot. It might break my heart if they write it in canon, but there should be a long, slow fic about Dean realizing that he does want that, as human. Canon has given us much to work with .It's time.