Exactly. There are so many similarities, but so many differences. Though Kripke sounded like he thought there weren't.
With Joss I felt more cared for, honestly. The tone of the fandom, I knew I could trust Joss to come through for underdogs, people who weren't heteronormative, women, lesbians. Trusted Joss to try to be aware, and there for me. Also, on the side of fandom, with his groundbreaking support of it. But I realize more and more that there is some stuff to be desired, there, re race and class perspectives.
I like your point re the show actually blowing up, killing etc. chosen family. Though it also killed blood family. The only way to stay together is to be... part of each other? Codependent. Though that's not necessarily the worst thing that could be, for them. I strongly agree, re chosen family (though Bobby). I think it's all part of the "it's us against the world" theme. That's also where the dichotomy between ways of life might be coming from - you're either the underdog on the road and so forth, or you're the Bradys. You know. You can't be part of *both* worlds! (unless your a pervert witch who owns a woman and sleeps with a dog...?).
Anyway - though I found seasons 4-5 *fantastic*, I can't - I don't have to words for how - I am still vibrating from those deep "ding"s... But I did find the ways Sam was made evil a bit contrived. I'd have been more interested in really understanding a full, complex process, that I could identify with more... Dean making a deal I could understand more (and why was he not considered evil for that and for starting the start of the apocalypse, and Sam was...?) But Sam and the demon blood was less... built to identify with. IMO. It made a lot of sense - and if so, I don't buy that it evil, really - or it was this stupid mistake Sam should have obviously known not to take, that was partially the fault of some chick and her evil pussy. Dean got so much backstory. I need a reason for Sam doing it - even if it was only for revenge, or to redeem himself for not managing to save Dean (a better though less common interpretation, to me) - what part of his identity, of his emotional state, what deep part of his world did this come from? You know? Like Dean's identity being so based on taking care of Sam... That gets in the way of it being a classic tragedy, to me, too.
I agree re free will, Madison. I don't like that the show never explains it, it's just "the way it is". I suspect it's to justify a lot of crap, and some very manly choices (and also, from the way J2 talk - glorifying making those choices). And to make the drama more extreme. Just the opposite, btw, ofThe Doctor making, at times, very dangerous, perhaps irresponsible choices based on hope and compassion. But then, so many of the boys' choices are rash and perhaps irresponsible. The Doctor is, at least, compassionate at times.
Different from other TV - Yeah. "Kill the monster cause it's a monster (unless it's Sammy)" thing - the "unless it's Sammy" makes it amazing. But the basic assumption... isn't it very common? Even on th news? Until season 8, Dean had no trouble with that double standard. And the thing is, the show kept proving him right. Monsters are monsters. That is distinctly different from BtVS, and while the show recognizes it's problematic if you're the monster, it either says "well, you'll have to sacrifice yourself to redeem yourself", or, for short periods, mostly in season 5 - "we're fucked up, monstrous and whatever, but we're what is, so we have to do what needs to be done". There's some, and I wish there were more , of the attitude of "Yeah, we;re fucked up, but perhaps that's no so bad".
As for "except for Sammy" I feel there's something there I don't completely understand, from my perspective. Perhaps a set of values and just way of thought about values I was definitely not raised with, that's really interesting to me and unique on TV. I feel I missed out, and I feel that what I was raised with, that Dean's perspective here is just amoral, is mean and reductive. I want to understand it better. Which is the major reason I'm not comfortable writing that fic, at least not yet. Way too "come be enlightened by our liberal values".
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With Joss I felt more cared for, honestly. The tone of the fandom, I knew I could trust Joss to come through for underdogs, people who weren't heteronormative, women, lesbians. Trusted Joss to try to be aware, and there for me. Also, on the side of fandom, with his groundbreaking support of it. But I realize more and more that there is some stuff to be desired, there, re race and class perspectives.
I like your point re the show actually blowing up, killing etc. chosen family. Though it also killed blood family. The only way to stay together is to be... part of each other? Codependent. Though that's not necessarily the worst thing that could be, for them. I strongly agree, re chosen family (though Bobby). I think it's all part of the "it's us against the world" theme. That's also where the dichotomy between ways of life might be coming from - you're either the underdog on the road and so forth, or you're the Bradys. You know. You can't be part of *both* worlds! (unless your a pervert witch who owns a woman and sleeps with a dog...?).
Anyway - though I found seasons 4-5 *fantastic*, I can't - I don't have to words for how - I am still vibrating from those deep "ding"s...
But I did find the ways Sam was made evil a bit contrived. I'd have been more interested in really understanding a full, complex process, that I could identify with more... Dean making a deal I could understand more (and why was he not considered evil for that and for starting the start of the apocalypse, and Sam was...?) But Sam and the demon blood was less... built to identify with. IMO. It made a lot of sense - and if so, I don't buy that it evil, really - or it was this stupid mistake Sam should have obviously known not to take, that was partially the fault of some chick and her evil pussy. Dean got so much backstory. I need a reason for Sam doing it - even if it was only for revenge, or to redeem himself for not managing to save Dean (a better though less common interpretation, to me) - what part of his identity, of his emotional state, what deep part of his world did this come from? You know? Like Dean's identity being so based on taking care of Sam...
That gets in the way of it being a classic tragedy, to me, too.
I agree re free will, Madison.
I don't like that the show never explains it, it's just "the way it is". I suspect it's to justify a lot of crap, and some very manly choices (and also, from the way J2 talk - glorifying making those choices). And to make the drama more extreme. Just the opposite, btw, ofThe Doctor making, at times, very dangerous, perhaps irresponsible choices based on hope and compassion. But then, so many of the boys' choices are rash and perhaps irresponsible. The Doctor is, at least, compassionate at times.
Different from other TV -
Yeah. "Kill the monster cause it's a monster (unless it's Sammy)" thing - the "unless it's Sammy" makes it amazing. But the basic assumption... isn't it very common? Even on th news? Until season 8, Dean had no trouble with that double standard. And the thing is, the show kept proving him right. Monsters are monsters. That is distinctly different from BtVS, and while the show recognizes it's problematic if you're the monster, it either says "well, you'll have to sacrifice yourself to redeem yourself", or, for short periods, mostly in season 5 - "we're fucked up, monstrous and whatever, but we're what is, so we have to do what needs to be done". There's some, and I wish there were more , of the attitude of "Yeah, we;re fucked up, but perhaps that's no so bad".
As for "except for Sammy" I feel there's something there I don't completely understand, from my perspective. Perhaps a set of values and just way of thought about values I was definitely not raised with, that's really interesting to me and unique on TV. I feel I missed out, and I feel that what I was raised with, that Dean's perspective here is just amoral, is mean and reductive. I want to understand it better. Which is the major reason I'm not comfortable writing that fic, at least not yet. Way too "come be enlightened by our liberal values".