I don't see Sam standing up to John as a bad thing at all!
Oh, sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you were saying that was a problem people had with him.
I agree, kids can be so so annoying. And I'm OK with it in fic, it's just such a partial picture of Sam, imo. I just don't like when characters are written as being (rather than perceived as) only one way, in order to make other characters look better. Except for when it's awesome. And when I'm the one doing it ;-)
Just like you said, re John. Just don't turn him into just one thing...
I personally relate to it a lot. I annoyed the crap out of my older sister when we were kids, and that can't have been much fun for my parents, either
LOL <3
When I think of the pre-series fic I love, so much of it is about the tension that had to have existed between the three of them
I love that too, so much! And I agree with your interpretation of the relationship, and I like fic in which John is complex. He was in a horrible position, losing his whole life like that. I love Candle_Beck's and Roque-Clasique's Johns. And I'm developing a taste for fic about him and the boys, the complex relationship there. And there should be more fic that takes place during the few episodes they were around each other. Which I should rewatch, cause I don't really remember.
The Long Narrow Rope
Sounds really good, thanks for the rec!
I think it was probably pretty clear to John that Dean wanted his approval
I wonder if he realized that means Dean actually, emotionally, needed that approval, and that it meant he had a certain responsibility to address that need. He may have stopped at thinking his side of things, without really realizing how it influenced Dean.
and I think he approved of Dean falling in line with him in terms of obedience and hunting because he saw it as the best way to keep the family together and safe, but I think he also knew that Dean loving classic rock and muscle cars didn't actually make him a carbon copy of John. Dean was the easier kid for John in a lot of ways, but if he'd actually been more like John in terms of temperament and personality, that wouldn't have been true anymore. So no, I don't think he really wanted Dean to be like him. I think he might have wished Sam was more like Dean, though. Which, yeah, not fair to Sam, either.
Agreed.
I don't think Dean really understood who John was as a person until his mid-to-late 20's, during the run of the show. His hero worship got in the way before that. But I do think he might have seen himself as a bridge between Sam and John.
I agree. I loved the way they talked about it around meeting Henry.
I think this is the calculus he might have done (pardon my made-up notations): [If] Sam loves Dean, [And] John and Dean get along, [And] Dean is like John, [Then] Sam and John should get along.
Hee! I think he felt he needed his family, and never imagined an option to the others getting along, to Sam being there. Hmm, did he ever choose Sam over John? Or did John just not give him a choice?
Oh man, thinking about Winchester family dynamics hurts. It's so hard and so sad. I love it. :P
Aww. *hugs*
Accepting that Sam standing up for himself is a good thing, how would you show those conflicts from John and/or Dean's perspective in a way that doesn't feel to you like a criticism or condemnation of Sam?
Oh, I pretty much agree with you, and seems like most fic I read is also somewhere along those lines. I suppose as long as I stick to Wincest, there's not likely to be a whole lot of Sam hate. It's stepping out that is sometimes hazardous, but a lot of times it's all right too.
no subject
Oh, sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you were saying that was a problem people had with him.
I agree, kids can be so so annoying. And I'm OK with it in fic, it's just such a partial picture of Sam, imo. I just don't like when characters are written as being (rather than perceived as) only one way, in order to make other characters look better. Except for when it's awesome. And when I'm the one doing it ;-)
Just like you said, re John. Just don't turn him into just one thing...
I personally relate to it a lot. I annoyed the crap out of my older sister when we were kids, and that can't have been much fun for my parents, either
LOL <3
When I think of the pre-series fic I love, so much of it is about the tension that had to have existed between the three of them
I love that too, so much! And I agree with your interpretation of the relationship, and I like fic in which John is complex. He was in a horrible position, losing his whole life like that. I love Candle_Beck's and Roque-Clasique's Johns. And I'm developing a taste for fic about him and the boys, the complex relationship there. And there should be more fic that takes place during the few episodes they were around each other. Which I should rewatch, cause I don't really remember.
The Long Narrow Rope
Sounds really good, thanks for the rec!
I think it was probably pretty clear to John that Dean wanted his approval
I wonder if he realized that means Dean actually, emotionally, needed that approval, and that it meant he had a certain responsibility to address that need. He may have stopped at thinking his side of things, without really realizing how it influenced Dean.
and I think he approved of Dean falling in line with him in terms of obedience and hunting because he saw it as the best way to keep the family together and safe, but I think he also knew that Dean loving classic rock and muscle cars didn't actually make him a carbon copy of John. Dean was the easier kid for John in a lot of ways, but if he'd actually been more like John in terms of temperament and personality, that wouldn't have been true anymore. So no, I don't think he really wanted Dean to be like him. I think he might have wished Sam was more like Dean, though. Which, yeah, not fair to Sam, either.
Agreed.
I don't think Dean really understood who John was as a person until his mid-to-late 20's, during the run of the show. His hero worship got in the way before that. But I do think he might have seen himself as a bridge between Sam and John.
I agree. I loved the way they talked about it around meeting Henry.
I think this is the calculus he might have done (pardon my made-up notations): [If] Sam loves Dean, [And] John and Dean get along, [And] Dean is like John, [Then] Sam and John should get along.
Hee!
I think he felt he needed his family, and never imagined an option to the others getting along, to Sam being there.
Hmm, did he ever choose Sam over John? Or did John just not give him a choice?
Oh man, thinking about Winchester family dynamics hurts. It's so hard and so sad. I love it. :P
Aww. *hugs*
Accepting that Sam standing up for himself is a good thing, how would you show those conflicts from John and/or Dean's perspective in a way that doesn't feel to you like a criticism or condemnation of Sam?
Oh, I pretty much agree with you, and seems like most fic I read is also somewhere along those lines. I suppose as long as I stick to Wincest, there's not likely to be a whole lot of Sam hate. It's stepping out that is sometimes hazardous, but a lot of times it's all right too.