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citrusjavaI keep hearing that SPN is getting old, as if the characters are mostly as explored as they can get, no more stories to tell. I think that's very far from true, it's more about the writers losing attention and willingness to change, as well as forgetting way too much about the show's past.
One thing I miss about SPN canon, as well as most of the fic I've come across lately, is a strong desire. For anything. Nobody on the show seems hungry anymore, or rather, if they're hungry they're resigned or just quiet about it (even poor Cas).
Even most of the fic I've read lately didn't have that hunger (maybe it was just a coincident) - for love, for sex, for being OK, for safely, for not being left, etc. It was about other things, some of them interesting, like pain, foreboding, creepiness, gloominess, depression, tentative fun - but not so much hunger or desire.
I thought perhaps it was about missing first-time fic, but established relationship can be just as dramatic and interesting if not more. I imagine, no idea if it's true, that SPN has that much established relationship fic partial because at some point the utter wonder and newness that makes a lot of first-times work, was repeated so many times it lost its magic for a while, and established relationship fics became more interesting. Though I love that fandom has both these days, as well as other options.
Anyway - The most dramatic thing Dean needed this season, to save Sam's life - looks like he pretty much knew he would be able to, and that even if he failed, it'll be ok in some way. And going through almost losing Cas, and Cas being OK, right after what happened with Sam, and again right away with Charlie, empties it all of real fear, desperation, real hunger.
The thing is, it's cool that Dean lives in his reality, and doesn't keep believing it's a completely new thing every time. But wouldn't he, then, feel other things instead? Yeah, now he has money (we assume), a place to live, Sam probably wanting to stay, and more assurance than other people have that his loved ones and he himself will probably be ok(though IDK why Zeke wouldn't let Dean himself die, who knows) . But when people get what they want, it often influences them... Wanting to protect that new shiny thing (which may be where Dean is, but we hardly get to see it), missing even bad things from the past, now that they're gone - something. The writers hitting Dean exactly the same way as he dealt with so many times alread, seemingly with the half-expectation that it'll work as if it's new, may be the writers not living in the reality of the show.
Bu it doesn't have to be passion. A different angle on writing from a situation like this can be looking at exhaustion itself. Seems like Jensen is pretty burnt out, and the show is tired too. There can be fascinating, beautiful stories told about exhaustion. Sometimes it has to do with the one last thing a person will get emotional over before they collapse. Sometimes it has to do with subtlety, maturity, a less dramatic way of looking at things and feelings, even though they may still matter to the person just as much. Or finding out you don't actually want things you'd been pining over for so long, or fighting for (like in Amanda Palmer's In My Mind). Or finding out that you've made peace, or that wonder of wonders - real wonder - you're capable of still wanting something new after all of that time (Like in the beautiful Paladin of Souls). Or capable of being new, yourself.
It can be about actually going through mourning some of the things that have been done to you, or you've done to yourself or others. The Winchesters were so often faced with disaster after disaster, without really getting time to deal with it (except for a few rare situations), it could be interesting if suddenly they started having feelings about things they just now has the time and safety to deal with.
Even "smaller" tragedies, like Dean feeling sorrow for not being what Jo wanted from him before she died, or anger at Crowley for getting her killed, or being shaken from Baby being flipped and crashing, with hm inside her, or seemingly irrational anger at Sam for beating him up while he was possessed, so many other things. Mourning things that happened to him as a kid, he never even really looked at his relation with John, beyond scratching the surface here and there. So many things.
And the way dealing with that would make him act, would change the way he acts with Sam and Cas, and Kevin. He might start going out and sleeping with waitresses again, might take up some odd hobby he never allowed himself to try, might become more vulnerable over small things, yell more, less with his "everything's good" attitude - I don't know. But I'd like to see.
Or it can be about living with a disability, or with scars. Like, for Sam - when the world *isn't* really falling apart and you're *not* going through the trials expecting to die soon, you suddenly have to deal. Now is probably the first time Sam's had where he wasn't completely stricken with grief or fighting something huge, since the first episode - or perhaps since before Stanford, in a way. Sam had said some fascinating things, to me, about living with mental issues, hallucinations - I want to hear more. And see some of the less photogenic, more everyday aspects of it. (like not decorating - clearly that was about fear, perhaps it was anxiety he was hiding from Dean)
But it doesn't have be about living with disability.I'd love more development for Sam in general, there's so much inside that boy that so rarely gets expressed, and Jared could make it beautiful and interesting of he got enough of it, too. Sam has a lot to deal with. He was raped, probably repeatedly, he lost all his loved ones, and was left utterly alone and with no one who could even understand, a short while ago. He was raised into a dark, scary world, forced to stay, tried to run away & failed twice. Even his anger issues - very justifiable anger - haven't necessarily been resolved. And more and more...
Perhaps his feelings of being damaged and impure extend beyond demon blood, perhaps it's also about his guilt, helplessness, internalized self loathing, feeling he doesn't measure up, things like handling being tortured/raped - whatever he may still be going through. There is something there, judging by those held back, sad little faces he makes, even when he's good. And along with that, as he said, he does see a light at the end of the tunnel. And it sounded like (I really hope!) he wants to reach that light and have a life with Dean.
Though I believe a lot of it is about feeling he isn't good enough in Dean's eyes.
So, now that he *isn't* in any huge danger he is aware of, perhaps it'd be harder for him, cause he'd need to deal. Perhaps that's why he went through the trials so readily, and was so easily willing to die over them, repeatedly. Perhaps he feels so damaged that what he's good for is dying for something, at that point. Perhaps now, dealing with things like staying - moving in, too - is difficult in a whole different way. And perhaps if he's aware of that - which he is likely to become, being pretty sensitive about that sort of stuff perhaps he'd even think he's forcing his suspicions towards Dean, just to have something distracting to worry about.
One thing I miss about SPN canon, as well as most of the fic I've come across lately, is a strong desire. For anything. Nobody on the show seems hungry anymore, or rather, if they're hungry they're resigned or just quiet about it (even poor Cas).
Even most of the fic I've read lately didn't have that hunger (maybe it was just a coincident) - for love, for sex, for being OK, for safely, for not being left, etc. It was about other things, some of them interesting, like pain, foreboding, creepiness, gloominess, depression, tentative fun - but not so much hunger or desire.
I thought perhaps it was about missing first-time fic, but established relationship can be just as dramatic and interesting if not more. I imagine, no idea if it's true, that SPN has that much established relationship fic partial because at some point the utter wonder and newness that makes a lot of first-times work, was repeated so many times it lost its magic for a while, and established relationship fics became more interesting. Though I love that fandom has both these days, as well as other options.
Anyway - The most dramatic thing Dean needed this season, to save Sam's life - looks like he pretty much knew he would be able to, and that even if he failed, it'll be ok in some way. And going through almost losing Cas, and Cas being OK, right after what happened with Sam, and again right away with Charlie, empties it all of real fear, desperation, real hunger.
The thing is, it's cool that Dean lives in his reality, and doesn't keep believing it's a completely new thing every time. But wouldn't he, then, feel other things instead? Yeah, now he has money (we assume), a place to live, Sam probably wanting to stay, and more assurance than other people have that his loved ones and he himself will probably be ok
Bu it doesn't have to be passion. A different angle on writing from a situation like this can be looking at exhaustion itself. Seems like Jensen is pretty burnt out, and the show is tired too. There can be fascinating, beautiful stories told about exhaustion. Sometimes it has to do with the one last thing a person will get emotional over before they collapse. Sometimes it has to do with subtlety, maturity, a less dramatic way of looking at things and feelings, even though they may still matter to the person just as much. Or finding out you don't actually want things you'd been pining over for so long, or fighting for (like in Amanda Palmer's In My Mind). Or finding out that you've made peace, or that wonder of wonders - real wonder - you're capable of still wanting something new after all of that time (Like in the beautiful Paladin of Souls). Or capable of being new, yourself.
It can be about actually going through mourning some of the things that have been done to you, or you've done to yourself or others. The Winchesters were so often faced with disaster after disaster, without really getting time to deal with it (except for a few rare situations), it could be interesting if suddenly they started having feelings about things they just now has the time and safety to deal with.
Even "smaller" tragedies, like Dean feeling sorrow for not being what Jo wanted from him before she died, or anger at Crowley for getting her killed, or being shaken from Baby being flipped and crashing, with hm inside her, or seemingly irrational anger at Sam for beating him up while he was possessed, so many other things. Mourning things that happened to him as a kid, he never even really looked at his relation with John, beyond scratching the surface here and there. So many things.
And the way dealing with that would make him act, would change the way he acts with Sam and Cas, and Kevin. He might start going out and sleeping with waitresses again, might take up some odd hobby he never allowed himself to try, might become more vulnerable over small things, yell more, less with his "everything's good" attitude - I don't know. But I'd like to see.
Or it can be about living with a disability, or with scars. Like, for Sam - when the world *isn't* really falling apart and you're *not* going through the trials expecting to die soon, you suddenly have to deal. Now is probably the first time Sam's had where he wasn't completely stricken with grief or fighting something huge, since the first episode - or perhaps since before Stanford, in a way. Sam had said some fascinating things, to me, about living with mental issues, hallucinations - I want to hear more. And see some of the less photogenic, more everyday aspects of it. (like not decorating - clearly that was about fear, perhaps it was anxiety he was hiding from Dean)
But it doesn't have be about living with disability.
Perhaps his feelings of being damaged and impure extend beyond demon blood, perhaps it's also about his guilt, helplessness, internalized self loathing, feeling he doesn't measure up, things like handling being tortured/raped - whatever he may still be going through. There is something there, judging by those held back, sad little faces he makes, even when he's good. And along with that, as he said, he does see a light at the end of the tunnel. And it sounded like (I really hope!) he wants to reach that light and have a life with Dean.
Though I believe a lot of it is about feeling he isn't good enough in Dean's eyes.
So, now that he *isn't* in any huge danger he is aware of, perhaps it'd be harder for him, cause he'd need to deal. Perhaps that's why he went through the trials so readily, and was so easily willing to die over them, repeatedly. Perhaps he feels so damaged that what he's good for is dying for something, at that point. Perhaps now, dealing with things like staying - moving in, too - is difficult in a whole different way. And perhaps if he's aware of that - which he is likely to become, being pretty sensitive about that sort of stuff perhaps he'd even think he's forcing his suspicions towards Dean, just to have something distracting to worry about.
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no subject
Date: 2013-11-09 08:21 am (UTC)How so? Because it's a mass of similar feelings, which can be problematic for writing? O r because it gets in the way of strongly feeling about other things, without being addressed? Or that it makes things less believable? Or something else?
It seems like the writers think that wouldn't make "good tv," but since the fans are so much more invested in the characters than in shock value, I disagree with that sentiment. Once upon a time, a sharp comment from John about "touching up his car" was cause for a lot of feeling/interesting character development and interactions, whereas now, another apocalypse barely fazes them.
Yes, yes, YES!
If Jensen's eyelashes didn't make me want to watch the show, "shock value" sure isn't likely to. Give me small hints about those beautifully complex characters, with a good story underneath!
As for the touch up - I missed that discussion, sadly. It was such an indicative thing to say, Dean kept the Impala *perfect*, and that still wasn't good enough for John. Sounds like it would be interesting for the 'Sam is the Impala' path I've heard about and haven't gotten into.
I so wish they would get back in touch with these characters' humanity
I suspect that's what Cas and Kevin are there to replace. Which makes me wanna kick some ass, and not because I have a problem with Cas or Kevin.
Sometimes I get the feeling the writers feel like SPN is a ship so big it's out of their control, which ain't good--they need to hire writers and/or a showrunner who can handle something as massive, with as passionate a fanbase, as this show.
YES. It so often like they're intimidated, wanting to please, but not listening, just wanting to not fuck it up, cause it's working and they don't want the blame for bringing it down. Like they know it's "only" gonna be another season and a half, perhaps, and "Let's just pass the time with small talk". When in the past they thouht every season was the last and wanted to make the very best of it. And they know there are plenty of fans who will be mean - and they're even mean when the writers do nothing interesting at all! Imagine what'd happen if they did something big! So we get bland, repetitive things, as if repeating something will have the same effect the second or fifteenth time. And we get "Oh, you want shipping moments? Here, have them!" (not that I'm complaining about those!) - but those are less effective for being less set in an emotional story arc. And the writers just don't listen to the right things, perhaps - the fans have been vocal for so many years about the amulet and Dean's phone message - if you want to please the fans, try listening to the fans better... Also, mostly, I'd like to get the writers to actually watch the entire show. Just sit down, you can do it together and we'll all spring for beer, OK? Just watch the thing from the beginning now, please.
Guh, the situation makes me Dommy. I wanna coach that team. I really wish they'd get someone who does that. They *should* get people from fandom to do that - even just fix scripts - we have amazing writers who know the show better than the current writers for sure - but even just - let Robby be show runner, please.
no subject
Date: 2013-11-09 10:46 am (UTC)I have the same feelings. Especially during S8, I found myself empathizing with Kevin a lot more than Sam or Dean. Which really shouldn't be happening in a show with two leads. With human!Cas, I don't really feel connected to him though (for a number of reasons which I don't really want to get to here).
I miss the days when Sam and Dean would try their damnedest to exorcise demons instead of going trigger-(or knife)-happy on all of them. You get the occasional episode where the writers seem to remember that the boys had some empathy for humans, even if they were possessed/done some shitty things. But other times they have them mowing down a warehouse full of demons without so much as a blink.
no subject
Date: 2013-11-09 01:15 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-11-12 08:36 am (UTC)I'll admit, I have a HUGE thing for dark!Winchesters, and especially so in recent seasons because of episodes like "Slash Fiction", and just the fact that the Winchesters are so messed up now. I would find the show a LOT more interesting if it was taking us down Sam & Dean's journey towards psychopathy. But that's probably something best explored in fic LOL.
no subject
Date: 2013-11-13 04:04 am (UTC)the weight of all the baggage they're carrying around is beginning to get in the way of furthering the story/character growth instead of helping it along.
How so? Because it's a mass of similar feelings, which can be problematic for writing? O r because it gets in the way of strongly feeling about other things, without being addressed? Or that it makes things less believable? Or something else?
I was thinking of what you said about how Sam and Dean have never had the chance to deal with all that's happened to them. Because real people who've been through everything they've been through realistically couldn't function nearly as well as Sam and Dean still do, it hinders creating a believable emotional reality between the boys in their relationship (upon which the WHOLE SHOW used to be based!). With all the water that's under the bridge between Sam and Dean that has never been meaningfully addressed or resolved, as fans it's sometimes hard to guess which of countless things they're mad at each other about now. If real people went through so much unresolved crap with another person, all the betrayals and perceived betrayals and misunderstandings, the relationship would simply break down. At best, I feel like they might work together but hardly speak and certainly never try to talk about any of the real issues in their relationship (since it never does any good anyway).
S1 managed to concoct a great deal of genuine emotional drama out of a couple of longstanding issues, and now the list is at least fifty items long and counting. Plus, they DID talk stuff out way back when! I can't remember the last time they did that, except in the church in "Sacrifice," but the conclusion was the only one they ever seem to come to these days: "I'm your brother, I love you, and that's all that matters," which helps but doesn't resolve the greater problems Sam brought up in the church. If as in S1 a few real issues are sufficient to drive the narrative of an entire season, I feel like the writers and the audience would be far better off if the writers allowed Sam and Dean to work out some of their old issues so they could get into new ones, instead of the brothers' entire relationship being so bogged down in too much baggage
On the plus side, they're trying out a few new writers this season. Maybe some fresh blood will help ...? We can hope.
no subject
Date: 2013-11-21 11:14 am (UTC)Yeah...
I don't believe the relationship would necessarily break down, but even just the early "Dean being tortured for 40 years" - ... how is he not... how is he... at all functioning? Ever? Perhaps angel heal more than the physical to some extent, that could explain most of it...
S1 managed to concoct a great deal of genuine emotional drama out of a couple of longstanding issues, and now the list is at least fifty items long and counting.
That's reather believable to me... and even more since both of them are so invested in putting their needs aside in order to please the other.
But I agree that writing-wise, it's a huge mass of unresolved things, and ignoring them sucks and also is less interesting and emotionally satisfying to me.
Plus, they DID talk stuff out way back when!
Yeah... and I agree that "I'm your brother" is not enough...
I feel like the writers and the audience would be far better off if the writers allowed Sam and Dean to work out some of their old issues so they could get into new ones
I very much agree.
On the plus side, they're trying out a few new writers this season. Maybe some fresh blood will help ...? We can hope.
I do hope! That Cas ep wasn't bad, though Dean was kinda - WTF.