citrusjava | Emma Watson's UN Speech

In case anybody missed Emma Watson's UN speech, I rec it. I disagree with some of her opinions within feminism, but she is so fantastic, and also moving. There's been some bad backlash , because of course.

Fandomwise, cookies (but the fluffy, nice kind) for Tom Hiddleston.

bunny.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

lyryk.livejournal.com

I'm a bit cynical about the 'heforshe' thing. But I'm pretty moved too by everything "this Harry Potter girl" is achieving. Kudos to her.

From:

citrusjava.livejournal.com

I agree. It's so far from enough, to begin with ("I'll stand up against violence" or whatever that was is so far from anything), and can stay on such a shallow level. Not to mention, this sounds like such - I'm looking for a nice way to say "privileged feminism". But then, she was so touching, and I appreciated her saying that she wasn't sure why she was the one talking about that.

Actually, there's this thing bugging me abou tthis, that if you feel like it, I'd love your to read what you see about.

I agree that I really don't have the patience to educate guys, be understanding while they take over conversations, mother and encourage them, and be so thankful when they come to get cookies after they've done something supposedly feminist - I've got enough going. I've done that for years. I don't feel they contribute to discussions on feminism in almost any case, I don't get why that's a good or why I should be putting my energy into any of that. I'd rather just play with women, trans* folk, etc. And comments like "we should make this space more friendly for men" make me want to cry or scream or just leave. Though I do agree that men are also oppressed by the way gender goes these days.

But then, I'm kinda - I need the next wave, and I'm not sure how that's going to go (and it's not gonna come from this project, I'm pretty sure). There are so many problems with identity politics that I don't know how to solve, and - I'm hearing a shift (or maybe it's just oin communities around me ?), a lot of the queer and feminist people I talk with leave behind the concepts of safe spaces and allies, and go for a more friendly and more traditionally queer approach. And I feel the need for that return to creativity instead of "being afraid to talk" (which I'm also OK with, people should maybe be afraid to talk when they're so likely to say harmful things), but I doubt this is a step forward, not sure it includes some of the more important elements of taking the social structure into account rather than just returning to classic "equality"... But also, things like - I know that for all I try "to educate myself" I fail in such a big way , and I know it's pretty much impossible not to fail at it, but the constant state of not being good enough can be really harmful, especially since so many activists are not in the best emotional state to begin with... So I really agree with the basic "first of all shut up and try to learn about this", "first of all create a space just for women (or whatever group) without people from empowered groups and lets try to figure out our experience, what we have to say" and so forth, and probably I should just be more committed to the process or something, but I kinda feel the need for the step after the "first of all"?

If you feel like saying, I'd love to read you thoughts, feelings, IDK.

From:

lyryk.livejournal.com

It definitely felt 'privileged'. At least she acknowledged that, and at least she's speaking from her own experience rather than that of all women, so I can appreciate that even if I don't feel that she's speaking for me at all.

I don't feel they contribute to discussions on feminism in almost any case

I have to agree, and I wish I didn't. But that rings true to me, too. I come across quite a few intelligent and educated men who either don't think feminism is relevant to them, or have really obsolete views on it.

I'd rather just play with women, trans* folk, etc. And comments like "we should make this space more friendly for men" make me want to cry or scream or just leave.

Absolutely. Since when has feminism become an 'uncomfortable' word? Why should we refer to some women as 'inadvertent' feminists? That whole argument makes little sense to me.

Though I do agree that men are also oppressed by the way gender goes these days.

There's the crux of it, really - at least for me. I believe there's a huge discrepancy between seeing feminism as 'man-hating' (how I wish Emma hadn't used that term) and recognising that 'women' aren't just some homogenous category. There are women with different skin colours and women with different sexualities and women with all kinds of backgrounds, many of whom don't have access to privileged spaces. And I think that people of all genders start off being conditioned to act and think a certain way in their own individual spaces, and that there's no one solution can fit everyone's situation. I don't even know if there are any actual solutions, but I guess I appreciate some people's efforts to change the way things are, even if I think that change is mostly ideological and will have no immediate practical effect.

"first of all create a space just for women (or whatever group) without people from empowered groups and lets try to figure out our experience, what we have to say"

I couldn't agree more with that. Speaking for myself, queer women are definitely the group that I feel most comfortable interacting with. And queer men too, to an extent. But people who identify as 100% straight male - not so much. And sometimes it can be exhausting to interact with straight women too, especially the ones who don't know I'm queer, or worse, know and choose to ignore it. (Fannish spaces are good that way - most of the straight people here aren't homophobic.)

From:

citrusjava.livejournal.com

It definitely felt 'privileged'. At least she acknowledged that, and at least she's speaking from her own experience rather than that of all women

*nodnodnod*

so I can appreciate that even if I don't feel that she's speaking for me

I agree, though I have to say - and this is not a good thing - I don't mean this politically, but emotionally - I seriously don;t expect this sort of thing to speak for me, I don't consider that an option, on some rare occasions that happened, sometimes it made me happy, sometimes it just made me feel very emotional and exposed. It's just so rare I don't think about it, hardly ever, you know?

I come across quite a few intelligent and educated men who either don't think feminism is relevant to them, or have really obsolete views on it

Yeah... and most of the truly rare and wonderful ones don't make it past knowing more correct feminist concepts, and not acting disrespectfully. Which is great - so so great, and unusual - but it doesn't really develop the conversation. "Everybody stop and be grateful that a guy was nice"... I really want to believe I'm being mean and unjust, and I do believe this is in the precess of changing, but at the moment - I just don't want to spend any more of my energy giving people the benefit of doubt over and over again. And if that means I am "man hating", I'm kinda OK with that ... I'm not here to be nice or available if I don't want to. Also, so many men have done such nasty things to me and to people I care about - it's kinda amazing how man-loving so many people are!

Why should we refer to some women as 'inadvertent' feminists? That whole argument makes little sense to me.

I agree, that was weird for me too. Is it 'inadvertently' condescending? Perhaps these are people who don't identify as feminists, or she felt she needed to differentiate them from the image of the fighting feminist activist? That was odd.

There are women with different skin colours and women with different sexualities and women with all kinds of backgrounds, many of whom don't have access to privileged spaces. And I think that people of all genders start off being conditioned to act and think a certain way in their own individual spaces, and that there's no one solution can fit everyone's situation.

I very much agree.

But people who identify as 100% straight male - not so much. And sometimes it can be exhausting to interact with straight women too, especially the ones who don't know I'm queer, or worse, know and choose to ignore it.

*nods*
I get that.

Fannish spaces are good that way - most of the straight people here aren't homophobic

Ooh, fandom... on one hand, it's so fantastic, and people here are definitely way more open minded and educated about social issues that so many other places...
but I have serious issues (=hurt) with "social issues " so often being considered "wank" and not legitimate topic. I want fandom to be pleasant for everyone too, I do, but if Jensen's gonna refuse to take a question cause the person asking identified as bisexual, or Jared's gonna talk reverse racism - that makes fandom an unpleasant space for quite a few people. Can't people at least be compassionate about that? On top being hurt by that, to also be blamed and chastised by my fandom family - that hurts even more. And it's such privilege, for it to be "not a big deal" for you. This is utterly personal, for some. And yeah, I get it if someone needs to stay away from these discussions - I have several triggers of my own - but that's not the same thing.
Not long ago some fan told me that if I, as a trans* person, wanted to have representations of people (any person) like me as subjects in media, all I needed to do was get off my ass and make it big in Hollywood, get funding and get past censorship, and voila! And that people who don't or can't do that should at least not blame poor Jensen for their personal failure. It's moments like that...