Wincest / established relationship writing rant (is this a rant?)

[citrusjava]

ETA: I got a comment about this coming across as if I'm angry, so I should clarify - I'm not angry at all, this is just a thing that bothers me, and I was hoping people would find it an interesting topic to discuss. If not, go ahead and ignore.

OK.
(background first)
So, I agree that, for instance, including one gay character on a show, to be "the gay character" kinda sucks. I was so excited when I first found a book about two male police detectives working on a case. A story about something besides them coming out or going to pride or hating themselves, that sort of thing.

But even for detectives in a story about detective work, being gay would paint the way they interact with the world and perceive themselves in it, would paint the things that draw their attention or annoy them, something. I hate the whole "we are exactly like straight people" narrative. Life experiences paint who you are. Identity paints who you are.

So I very much doubt that even if the Winchesters were in an established relationship, the "incest thing" would just fade into the background completely. It IS part of their lives, their history, it matters that they're brothers because it's an important part of their history and relationship, and it matters that they are brothers because even if they are completely over it, they have to live in a world that is not, and that MATTERS! I really need more stories that don't disregard or erase that. There is room for fluffy comforty stories, and I get that not all writers want to focus on that, but it really bothers me that it's become a norm to disregarded it completely.



ETA (not, er, related, just on the topic of established relationships):

Also - Even if it's established relationship, as a reader, I still need to be convinced it's awesome. Convinced to ship THESE Dean and Sam. True, not every single fic, but every few fics, maybe? The show neglects that, and a lot of fic neglects that.... tell me why you are passionate with this pairing, make me wanna be on board even if I already am?

Comments

[saltandburnboys.livejournal.com]

I'm not quite sure what you're mad about here? How would that author have written them 'as gay.' Unless they're writing about them having sex, or who they're attracted to, any way they write them is acceptable, IMO. Unless you're implying that gay people have to think and see the world in a certain way to make them actually gay, which I'm pretty sure isn't what you're implying?

And are you saying you hate normalised incest in Sam/Dean fic? Coz that also has never really bothered me unless it's first time fic, and even then, I've seen people handle that really well. I actually have no problem with normalised incest in fics - or freaked out boys because I like it most any way people wanna write it - especially if they've been in a relationship since before Stanford and it's been like ten years because at some point, they're gonna stop beating themselves up about it, IMO. And besides, they flaunt the law at every turn - have nearly ended the world - I don't really see a little incest bothering them all that much anymore. But then...consensual incest isn't something that really bothers me anyway; to each their own. As long as it's consensual, I don't really care what people get up to in their privacy of their own bedroom/or the back seat of their Impala, lol.

And I'm usually passionate about the pairing just from how someone writes it. The way they have the boys talk or look at it each or fight for each other. I don't think I've ever read a fic where I didn't feel it in some way, tbh. Hell, their relationship is awesome to me even in gen fic just because their relationship IS awesome; for me, a writer doesn't need to do that much to convince me of that.

[citrusjava.livejournal.com]

I'm not angry at all, didn't meant for it to come across as anger....


I'm not saying I'm against normalizing incest in society, I'm not even against writing about it as normalized even though it isn't in most cultures I know of, because imo it's good to envision that sort of existence. But it really bothers me the the norm of writing Wincest had become doing that. Just like gay relationships, beating yourself up about it is definitely not the only way it can influence your life (though believe me, you can keep beating yourself up over stuff for longer than ten years, especially if society tells you you should, and especially if you're settling into being semi normal, like Sam believed they were season 9). I mean - pick any disempowered group you are part of. You are going to face things about that beyond an innitial beating yourself up of it (if that).

they flaunt the law at every turn - have nearly ended the world - I don't really see a little incest bothering them all that much anymor

Doing epic acts of heroism and the little daily life identity things are completely different, and that is a significant part of the characters' charm and interest. Dean is embarrassed to admit he enjoys Taylor Swift. He freaks out when people think he isn't manly. Sam is embarrassed that Dean catches him watching porn, or even that Dean makes a scene at a parking lot. They're human people, they are influenced by society even though they're heroes. That is pat of their appeal.

Again, this is so far from being a post against incest. This is a post saying - can we please try to paint a more realistic and complex picture of it?

IDK, it bothers me a lot to read stories about, say, Sam coming out to Dean as transgender and Dean being totally supportive and educated about it in three seconds and never misgendering and never saying anything nasty. It's good that there are stories like that, because it's good to envision tht sort of possibility, but it is NOT the way things are likely to go now.


I'm usually passionate about the pairing just from how someone writes it


That is exactly what I'm saying, except for the part where you haven'[t read fics that didn't do that. Good for you, then.

[saltandburnboys.livejournal.com]

Okay, so how do you want them to be written? I assumed you were saying you didn't like that the boys didn't acknowledge that what they're doing is incest, thus my 'beating themselves up' comment; if that's not what you were saying, what do you want authors to write into their stories that you think is missing?

I don't really agree with that - once you've literally been to hell and back, I can't imagine a little incest is going to keep you up at night. But your opinion on that is perfectly valid, even if I don't agree.

But why can't that story fly? Who says that Dean wouldn't put everything he's known before aside for Sam, get himself on the Internet and do some research, and come back a much more enlightened version of himself. For Sam. I could see him doing that for Sam. Maybe not for anyone else, but I can see him making that kind of effort for Sam. Much like it would be perfectly valid for Dean to not understand it and not be able to handle it.

And if the former storyline doesn't work for you, that's cool, but that doesn't mean it's an unrealistic story.

And that's my point - something may not be realistic to you, or handled the way you'd handle it, but that doesn't make that interpretation any less valid.

[citrusjava.livejournal.com]

You move in the world differently when you know society doesn't accept you. You go to the supermarket differently. You meet new people differently. You watch TV differently. You work cases differently. When people talk about "everybody ______________ " you feel at least slightly differently. You include yourself or don't include yourself in different groups and react emotionally to stories in a different way - even if very tiny ways.

You look for people like you. For instance, I'm pretty sure that in years of reading Wincest, never read a story in which either of the boys ever looked at some person on a case and wondered if they were in love with their sibling too. And they had reasons to, they had canon reasons to, apart from it just making sense to look for someone like you, especially when you're so isolated, and especiually when they do that for so many other things.

Even for an identity like gay, that is almost totally accepted, compared with most disempowered identities, people will still look at you weird many times, even nice accepting people will do things like pat themselves on the back for being nice and accepting towards you, or assume you won't or can't do things, or feel it was ok to ask you intrusive questions or expect you to educate them, or you know, just fire you and stuff. For things like being trans to living with anxiety, it's so incredibly worse. Incest is just in its earliest campaigning days. Do you imagine someone doing a Represent shirt campaign for that? Do you imagine even a Tumblr affirmation post not getting hell for that?



Those things matter. It matters to have no representation on TV except for on the bloodiest show on HBO that prides itself on decadence/cruelty. It matters that that would be the only place society would be willing to put you, that that is the only place you are told you belong.


It matters not knowing anyone at all with whom you can share the experiences specific to your situation, a situation so meaningful in your life. Even if you're out about it - which would NOT BE EASY regardless of how cool they are about it - they don't have anyone at all to share their experiences with. That makes a person feel isolated, makes a person feel unworthy and less human - particularly when they already feel that way anyway, like both Winchesters - I mean, for all we root for it to be awesome for them, but that is not a way to wipe the world clean, you know? Unless some magical creature changed things - IT MATTERS. And on that not - never ever a single fic about that, about making the world more accepting.

I don't equate acknowledging it's incest with beating themselves up, that is part of my point.

OK, I'm telling you as a person who lives this, that that is not a realistic story. Also, you changed the story I described, but yours is not realistic either, not that simply, not by a long shot. I can see Dean TRYING to make that happen, yes.

[saltandburnboys.livejournal.com]

But your experience isn't everyone's experience. And your view of the world isn't the only view of the world. That's the main problem I have with what you're saying; you're disregarding absolutely every point of view except your own.

And, yes, I think those things matter very much, but I also don't think it's a step forward to have characters who are completely defined by their gender/race/sexuality. For instance, I don't write my gay characters as gay characters; I write them as guys who happen to be attracted to men.

And you say Sam and Dean feel isolated in their lives. I completely disagree with that. They've always been cut off from the world so they've adapted and made their worlds just about them, so I don't think they go looking for incest relationships elsewhere to make them feel more accepted because their brother is the only other person that matters to them, and they no longer need to be accepted by a society that's already rejected them. Not saying you're wrong; just saying that I see this differently.

And, as I'll say again, I DO see that as realistic. As realistic as I see Dean having trouble with it, because we actually don't know HOW he'd react since we haven't seen him in that situation. And because everyone has a different interpretation of Dean's character. I, personally, don't think Dean cares about other people's genders/sexualities; the only time he's seemed uncomfortable with it is when someone of the same sex is hitting on him. And he didn't seem disgusted at all to me; he just seemed flustered and out of his element. And it's SAM; IMO, he'd accept Sam in any form, as long as Sam was happy. So I'd be perfectly reading a transgender!Sam with supportive!Dean. I don't accept that that story is unrealistic just because you say it is.

And whatever stories you come up with aren't wrong either. But saying those fics are wrong isn't right, IMO, because just because you don't see it that way doesn't mean that others don't and it doesn't mean they're wrong.

[citrusjava.livejournal.com]

Are you non-binary? If you are, let's talk. If you aren't, your realistic non-binary experience is nonexistent, and therefore not relevant. If you want to return to talking about the topic I brought up, ok. If not, have some respect, please.

[saltandburnboys.livejournal.com]

No, it's fine; we don't need to discuss this further. You don't seem open to any ideas but your own, which is fine, I guess; it's just not how I approach life.

[citrusjava.livejournal.com]

You'll find that me not having much respect for your opinion is not, in fact, equal to not being open to hear anyone's opinion. I save that for the rude, uninformed and self important.

[saltandburnboys.livejournal.com]

Wow, I don't think anyone has ever been as rude to me on LJ as you've just been in that comment, and that includes anons I've gotten. That's my cue to sign off, I'm afraid.

[citrusjava.livejournal.com]

You live a lovely, privileged life, then, enjoy it.
I meet people like you fairly often.