Wincest / established relationship writing rant (is this a rant?)

[citrusjava]

ETA: I got a comment about this coming across as if I'm angry, so I should clarify - I'm not angry at all, this is just a thing that bothers me, and I was hoping people would find it an interesting topic to discuss. If not, go ahead and ignore.

OK.
(background first)
So, I agree that, for instance, including one gay character on a show, to be "the gay character" kinda sucks. I was so excited when I first found a book about two male police detectives working on a case. A story about something besides them coming out or going to pride or hating themselves, that sort of thing.

But even for detectives in a story about detective work, being gay would paint the way they interact with the world and perceive themselves in it, would paint the things that draw their attention or annoy them, something. I hate the whole "we are exactly like straight people" narrative. Life experiences paint who you are. Identity paints who you are.

So I very much doubt that even if the Winchesters were in an established relationship, the "incest thing" would just fade into the background completely. It IS part of their lives, their history, it matters that they're brothers because it's an important part of their history and relationship, and it matters that they are brothers because even if they are completely over it, they have to live in a world that is not, and that MATTERS! I really need more stories that don't disregard or erase that. There is room for fluffy comforty stories, and I get that not all writers want to focus on that, but it really bothers me that it's become a norm to disregarded it completely.



ETA (not, er, related, just on the topic of established relationships):

Also - Even if it's established relationship, as a reader, I still need to be convinced it's awesome. Convinced to ship THESE Dean and Sam. True, not every single fic, but every few fics, maybe? The show neglects that, and a lot of fic neglects that.... tell me why you are passionate with this pairing, make me wanna be on board even if I already am?

Comments

[saltandburnboys.livejournal.com]

But your experience isn't everyone's experience. And your view of the world isn't the only view of the world. That's the main problem I have with what you're saying; you're disregarding absolutely every point of view except your own.

And, yes, I think those things matter very much, but I also don't think it's a step forward to have characters who are completely defined by their gender/race/sexuality. For instance, I don't write my gay characters as gay characters; I write them as guys who happen to be attracted to men.

And you say Sam and Dean feel isolated in their lives. I completely disagree with that. They've always been cut off from the world so they've adapted and made their worlds just about them, so I don't think they go looking for incest relationships elsewhere to make them feel more accepted because their brother is the only other person that matters to them, and they no longer need to be accepted by a society that's already rejected them. Not saying you're wrong; just saying that I see this differently.

And, as I'll say again, I DO see that as realistic. As realistic as I see Dean having trouble with it, because we actually don't know HOW he'd react since we haven't seen him in that situation. And because everyone has a different interpretation of Dean's character. I, personally, don't think Dean cares about other people's genders/sexualities; the only time he's seemed uncomfortable with it is when someone of the same sex is hitting on him. And he didn't seem disgusted at all to me; he just seemed flustered and out of his element. And it's SAM; IMO, he'd accept Sam in any form, as long as Sam was happy. So I'd be perfectly reading a transgender!Sam with supportive!Dean. I don't accept that that story is unrealistic just because you say it is.

And whatever stories you come up with aren't wrong either. But saying those fics are wrong isn't right, IMO, because just because you don't see it that way doesn't mean that others don't and it doesn't mean they're wrong.

[citrusjava.livejournal.com]

Are you non-binary? If you are, let's talk. If you aren't, your realistic non-binary experience is nonexistent, and therefore not relevant. If you want to return to talking about the topic I brought up, ok. If not, have some respect, please.

[saltandburnboys.livejournal.com]

No, it's fine; we don't need to discuss this further. You don't seem open to any ideas but your own, which is fine, I guess; it's just not how I approach life.

[citrusjava.livejournal.com]

You'll find that me not having much respect for your opinion is not, in fact, equal to not being open to hear anyone's opinion. I save that for the rude, uninformed and self important.

[saltandburnboys.livejournal.com]

Wow, I don't think anyone has ever been as rude to me on LJ as you've just been in that comment, and that includes anons I've gotten. That's my cue to sign off, I'm afraid.

[citrusjava.livejournal.com]

You live a lovely, privileged life, then, enjoy it.
I meet people like you fairly often.